Unpacking: Chronic Pain and Nature

Holly: 00:00:00

Okay, I'm really going to jump into it now. Forest bathing. Okay. Have you heard of forest bathing? Because whatever it is, I want it. I want to bathe in a forest, but do I have to get naked?

Like, give me the scoop. What is it? And why do people do it?

Megan: 00:00:20

Yeah, great question.

was developed in Japan in the: 1980

Holly: 00:00:35

Oh, darn. That part I was willing to do.

Intro: 00:00:40

Welcome to Unpacking Pain, a podcast dedicated to understanding the complexities of chronic pain, what causes it, how it affects our lives, and what we can do about it.

Join doctor of physical therapy and pain science researcher Dr. Megan Steele, and me, Holly Osborne, a chronic pain sufferer, as together we explore the biological, psychological and social aspects of chronic pain and create community and understanding in the process.

Holly: 00:01:16

This is episode one of season two.

Megan: 00:01:20

So excited for this season.

Holly: 00:01:21

It's great to be back with you. And we've got some very cool topics that we're going to be covering this season. I'm really excited about the slate.

Megan: 00:01:30

Me, too. Absolutely. We're going to have some really cool guests, but this one is just me and you. Just like old times.

Holly: 00:01:36

Yeah, just us girls today. And. But yeah, I am. I'm pretty excited for a couple of our special guest stars. And we're just really appreciative that you're listening.

You out there in your car or on your walk or, you know, on the treadmill, whatever it is that you're doing. Thank you for tuning in. This topic today is a lovely, lovely topic.

I almost feel calmer right now just knowing that this is what we're going to discuss. Dr. Megan so without further ado, this is our chronic pain and nature episode. Nature.

Megan: 00:02:12

Just that word brings calmness. Right?

Holly: 00:02:16

Doesn't it, though? It just feels good. And Lord knows we all need as much of it as we can get.

Whether we're living in a concrete jungle or whether we're living in the countryside, man, it really does wonders. And so this is focused, of course, on how nature can impact chronic pain.

Those of us living with chronic pain, those of us treating it, studying it, nature can do wonders for us. And I guess that kind of, you know, follows common sense.

We know that the sun can be very healing and that when we eat lots of fruits and vegetables, that kind of nature's great for us. But what about really actually communing with nature and. And what does the relationship that we have between experiencing Nature and our bodies.

What, what, you know, what is that relationship like? And why does nature unlock some, some good healing?

So these are all the things that I'm going to get nosy about with Dr. Megan today and ask her a bunch of questions and anything you want to add as we're, as we're kicking off?

Megan: 00:03:22

No, I think that was a good introduction and I think also why do people say things like go touch grass. Right. Why are there certain things in our vocabulary?

Just like we kind of intuitively know, you know, we're social creatures and we need other people.

We also know on some level that we need nature, we need to be outdoors, we're made up of organic material and we need to be around other organic material. And when we don't experience that for periods of time, I think it can be challenging for us.

And the great news is a lot of the things we're going to talk about today are either free or very low cost. So I know sometimes it can feel like a little bit of doom and gloom when we talk about some of the things around chronic pain.

But I think today is going to be really positive and hopefully will give you some ideas of things that you can take into your daily life.

Holly: 00:04:22

Yeah, I know that I need to be a little more committed to being out in nature and I've been reading lately about what it does for you when you get real light in your eyes, not artificial light, but when you step outside, even if it's a gloomy day, if you interact with that, those natural rays or that natural atmosphere, doesn't it kind of wake up your system a little bit more so than just being in artificial light? Dr. Mackenzie?

Megan: 00:04:49

Yes, and they think that it, it helps with your circadian rhythm. And a lot of times with people who are in chronic pain, there is, are problems with sleep or sleep disturbances.

And one of the best, easiest ways to practice sleep hygiene or to do like a little micro dose of sleep hygiene, if you will, is, is to get outside in the morning and the evening. So morning sunlight, part of it has to do with the angle that the sun hits your eye. That tells your nervous system it's wake up time.

I believe it's between 8 to 10am I'll double check on that. But certain times in the morning when the sun is at a certain angle signals to our nervous systems it's wake up time.

And then that setting sun sets at a different angle and that tells our body, okay, it's time to start winding down. So if you're someone that has chronic pain that struggles with sleep or if you're just someone that struggles with sleep, you could try that.

And I think it's as little as 10 minutes of exposure to sun in the morning and in the evenings. And then you know, you can get those golden hour pictures when everybody skin looks like extra foul. Right.

Holly: 00:06:03

I love that extra, that little pro tip. Oh, that's selfie Tip me to you. I've been noticing that I do feel a little bit more ready for bedtime when I've been outside. Actually.

This is a, also a built up to an episode we're doing later this, this season about qigong, which is similar to Tai Chi. A lot of people don't know qigong is, but they've heard of Tai Chi and I do it outside around sunset time.

Megan: 00:06:30

Oh, that's wonderful.

Holly: 00:06:32

It really does kind of downregulate and. But anyway, this isn't me and my experience I'm really curious to understand because if that, that's just the beginning of it, right.

If we understand the way that their circadian rhythm is working with the sun, the moon and the cycle and all of that, that is just the beginning. Right.

It's like, wow, there's, there's water, there's color, there's smell, there's touch, there's sight, there's, you know, all of these senses that come to play that could probably also have a big role in this. So I, okay, I'm, I'm really going to jump into it now. Forest bathing. Okay. Have you heard of forest bathing?

Because whatever it is, I want it, I, I want to bathe in a forest, but do I have to get naked? Like, give me the scoop. What is it and why do people do it?

Megan: 00:07:26

was developed in Japan in the: 1980

And the good news is you don't have to get naked and you don't have to rub leaves all over yourself and.

Holly: 00:07:40

Oh darn, that part I was willing to do.

Megan: 00:07:43

Yeah.

But it is an evidence based practice of immersing yourself in nature and it uses all of your five senses and it's been shown to reduce stress and improve overall well being. And the other great news is, you know, you don't have to do a hike.

It doesn't have to be strenuous, you don't have to be hurling yourself up or down mountains. Which is one of the ways that my best friend describes hiking. She's like, I, I'm not interested to hurl myself hurling, which I love.

I think you've been doing it wrong. But that's, yeah, you, you can do a slow walk in nature. You can go sit, sit in nature.

It's, it's been shown to be really beneficial for human beings to immerse themselves in nature.

Holly: 00:08:41

Now do you think that has something to do with. And I'm going to be way out of my depth here in about two seconds.

But the, the nature of our bodies being the composition of our bodies, like are we, we're like what are we? We're carbon, water, like we're a couple basic elements. And is it because at the end of the day we're all made of the same substance. Why?

I mean it's obviously common sense that it would feel good to be in a forest or that this, you know, having sun rays during the day would be good for you or smelling fresh cut grass like we get it, it's not a mystery. But I am curious about whatever science you can shed on this like how and why does it or what's it doing to us?

Megan: 00:09:28

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know that our nervous systems or our bodies recognize like hey tree, you're the same as me, right? We're saying we're brothers.

I don't know if it's quite at that level. But there is a researcher who's written a book recently that I'll talk more about.

His name is Mark Berman and I believe he's out of the University of Chicago.

And he has and his research team have looked into this and they've done a lot of experiments where they've taken people out into nature and they do cognitive tests and memory tests and tests of well being and things like that. And what they've discovered is that it has something to do with something called fractals, which was a new term for me.

Are you familiar with fractals?

Holly: 00:10:17

I feel like I've run into fractals. I have a history in brand strategy and design and well, I'm not a designer but I've been around a lot of it, my career.

So that's as far as I can go with fractals. I think it comes into graphic design in some capacity.

Megan: 00:10:34

I think it probably does.

And they've done studies where they look at buildings and people like or prefer buildings that are more nature shaped so less like right hard angles and more rounded type of shapes and things like that. And that's as far as I know about design. But fractals turn out to be these patterns that you find in nature.

And so it has to do with the fact that no matter how close or far away you are from something, something like say, a leaf, the pattern remains the same. Or something like a snowflake. So the pattern that makes up that snowflake, no matter how closely you zoom in, it remains the same.

And they think that that is very calming for our brains and that we pay attention to it in such a way that we don't have to devote our whole attention to it. So you could be looking at nature and still be kind of working on something in the back end. Ooh.

Holly: 00:11:42

Could this start to explain why some people really do good work when they're listening to the. They have the ocean in the background or they have even just some ocean waves playing artificially.

Megan: 00:11:54

Right.

Holly: 00:11:55

Like my husband will just put on a sound machine when he's got to do deep immersive work. So is that unlocking something in our brains, like you said, Maybe it's allowing us some extra gear of calm or some extra year of focus or something.

Megan: 00:12:10

Potentially, yeah. So the good news is for people that live in very urban environments, this researcher at a University of Chicago found a couple things.

You can bring nature indoors, meaning you can have plants or flowers, anything natural growing indoors. And that can provide similar benefits. And you can also use fake plants that still provides. Yeah, it still provides some benefits.

Holly: 00:12:44

Fake plant, that. This is interesting. In fact, I just put a bunch of fake plants in my stepson's dorm room or his, his, his room at George Washington University.

And we were kind of cracking up about them. He's like, this is, this is pretty perfect. I'll never kill these. And I thought, am I doing them a disservice?

You know, but it sounds like they will still have the same positive effect. How in the heck is that? Is that because our brains are just wired to look for it and feel better when we see nature in any form?

Megan: 00:13:13

I think so. I think it's the same thing of fractals. And they find that, like, the more realistic the fake plants, the better. But yeah.

So I think it has to do with the fact that our brains just respond to this and recognize, okay, this is nature. This is a positive thing. And there's also been research on nature sounds. So there was a study in. Hold on, let me look at this.

I want to say it was: 2016

So they did nature contact, micro break in office or waiting room. So again, not everybody has access to nature.

Not everybody has access to green spaces, but you can do something as simple as put on a YouTube channel with Ocean sounds or birds chirping or the sounds of leaves. I want to say crackling, but I know that's wrong. Rustling. I live in Los Angeles. What do leaves do? Neat. Leaves rustling in the wind.

And what they found in this study is that there was a significant reduction in muscle tension that occurred after seven minutes of listening to the nature sound.

Holly: 00:14:37

Just seven minutes. Wow. I mean, when we think about not having enough time in our lives to manage everything that we need.

And I know sometimes meditation comes up as something that's really difficult to keep doing because even 20 minutes can feel, you know, difficult sometimes to carve out that 20 minutes.

So this is beautiful to think that in seven minutes we could be affecting or affecting our muscle tension and how we're experiencing pain on a given day.

Megan: 00:15:07

Absolutely.

And so if your husband is someone who, when he turns on the nature sounds, then he's able to have great ideas or do creative work that would make a lot of sense, because now he has access to his brain, his thinking brain, and his creative brain that we don't always have full access to when we're in that fight or flight, more tense, higher nervous system response phase.

Holly: 00:15:35

You know, that's making a lot of sense. I didn't actually make the correlation until you just now said that.

That the same way that when we're stressed out, let's say that, you know, we have a tense moment with a. With a coworker, apparently during that stress, our cognitive. Our brain changes. Right.

So when we're in fight or flight, our reasoning gets smaller and our ability to really be effective and in that conversation and work our way through that conflict, it gets even more challenging because. Right. It's almost like you get pinhole vision.

Megan: 00:16:11

And.

Holly: 00:16:11

And I have a feeling that that is similar to what we're experiencing when pain is flaring, that it's hard to think about other things. It's hard to be rational.

It's hard to take the time to really unpack how you're feeling and apply even, you know, really good strategic thinking to something or manage a conversation. And so maybe what we need is seven minutes of nature to kind of allow that to breathe.

Megan: 00:16:42

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's.

I think, you know, even if you are someone who has gotten well used to distracting themselves from pain or pushing through pain, that doesn't mean you're still not working on it and in the background. Right. And that's taking up brain cells, that's taking up glucose, that's taking up your.

Your Nervous system's ability to think about creative other things and like you say, process whatever you're discussing in the moment with someone. So, yeah, if. If in a chronic pain state, you can take a break and, and listen to some nature sounds that could potentially help your pain.

And one of the kind of first studies that they did in the US on this was in people who had gallbladder removal surgery.

this was done, I believe, in: 1984

And what they found is the people who were in the nature rooms were discharged from the hospital one day sooner.

Holly: 00:18:09

Wow.

Megan: 00:18:10

And they took less pain medication. Huh.

Holly: 00:18:16

And the. And how long were they. They had a couple of days post op.

Megan: 00:18:21

Right. So things are pretty different now.

You know, I mean, you can get out of the hospital the same day you have a hip replacement these days, but these people, I believe, on average, were spending three and four days in the hospital after gallbladder removal surgery. So back in the 80s, like I.

Holly: 00:18:39

Say, man, that's powerful. I mean, to think about actually the body being able to more efficiently heal.

Megan: 00:18:48

Right, right.

Holly: 00:18:49

I mean, to. And to require less pain intervention when you're. That. That's. That's pretty amazing, actually.

Megan: 00:18:57

I think so too. And I think this was a thing that kind of sparked this researcher at University of Chicago to look into this further.

He's a psychologist by training and research, but he's looked into some of the cognitive aspects of nature, and what he found was when he had people go on a nature walk. So this was a study that they designed where they tested people's cognitive ability.

And then they went on a nature walk and they retested their cognitive ability. They improved. Ooh, really?

And then they said, well, probably people who like walking in nature, you know, you're getting more blood flow to your brain, and that's one of the ways that you can, you know, one of the most effective ways to prevent, like, neurodegenerative diseases is cardiovascular exercise. And in part, they think that has to do with blood flow.

But then they said, well, let's try this with people who don't like exercise, don't like walking. And so they brought people in who they thought. Who thought this would not have a positive effect on them, and it still had a positive effect on them.

Holly: 00:20:17

Oh, I love that.

Megan: 00:20:18

Don't the skeptics. Exactly.

And so then, then they were told, okay, well, of course it's lovely to go outside and walk in Chicago in the spring and it's green and it's not too hot and birds and flowers and whatever. So he said, okay, well, we'll do it in February in Chicago in the cold. Yeah. Speaking of naysayers.

Holly: 00:20:48

And I'd be like, nay. Right.

Megan: 00:20:52

And so then again, they had people who were like, this is not going to be fun. This is not going to help me. I'm not going to enjoy this. And those people still benefited.

Holly: 00:21:02

Wow. Wow. Is there a. Any kind of. So like, let's pretend that we were talking about Advil and be like, it's so great. You take it and you feel better.

Oh, oh, I'm going to do this every day, twice a day. Well, that would not be great, you know, to, to put yourself that much. What strikes me about this is like, there's probably no way to OD on nature.

I mean, as long, as long as you're not, you know, out there without any SPF on and the blazings. Right. Obviously, nature can have her way with us anytime she wants. She's the power.

But right when we're talking about being, you know, in a garden or just touching grass or listening to birds,.

Megan: 00:21:44

It.

Holly: 00:21:45

Sounds like this is something that you could return to every single day. And your body doesn't acclimate in a way that it's, you know, needs more of it in order to be effective.

Megan: 00:21:56

Right. Yeah.

I don't think you build up a tolerance and I think the side effects are, you know, maybe some blisters if you don't have the right shoes, or let's say a sunburn if you're not well protected. Yeah, yeah. The side effect profile is tremendously low. And yeah, the benefits are just beyond.

And there's a medical school in Boston where a Dr. Susan. I'm so sorry that I'm going to butcher this last name Abu Kiri.

She is on a mission to introduce students to something called forest therapy, which is a structured version of forest bathing, where she brings her medical students. It's a two day voluntary part of the course, I believe, or maybe it's a standalone.

And it's, it's to help steer physicians and help them recognize that there are things in nature that boost the immune system, lower blood pressure, and she hopes that they can adopt it themselves as clinicians and then also recommend it to colleagues and patients.

Holly: 00:23:18

That makes me feel so hopeful and so positive. I just have to say, I mean, there's so much, I think that we pay attention to these days in terms of news headlines.

And you know, we're told how to take care of ourselves for longevity. And in learning about that, sometimes we learn more about what we're doing wrong than what we're doing.

Megan: 00:23:41

Right.

Holly: 00:23:41

Right. So for example, it's like, okay, you're not getting enough protein.

All right, now you're finally getting enough protein, but you're getting the wrong protein. Okay, you finally started doing, you know, saunas, but, oh, did you realize that you're in the wrong temperature sauna?

Oh, and by the way, you should be eating charcoal when you're inside. What?

You know, so many of these things have these hidden, um, you know, there's a right way and a wrong way and that can feel very overwhelming at times. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still pursue these other modalities to help manage our pain if we think they can help us.

But gosh, I just feel really hopeful and delighted about the idea that nature free to us, accessible even through a phone sound. Right. You don't have to have a beachfront property that, that this is something we can turn to every day for some relief.

Dr. Megan, do you think it's cumulative by any chance too? Like once you start doing it more and more, like, can it help you the, like start building up something inside you?

Megan: 00:24:44

That's a great question. And if we think about it like we think about meditation, then certainly I don't know that that research has been done yet.

This, the research that I've seen has been more short term. But if you think about the benefits of long term meditation, they're tremendous.

And also if you're someone that is wanting to improve strength and cardiovascular endurance, you're certainly going to see benefits from getting outside, staying outside. Maybe as you start to feel more endurance or more strength, then you do start hurling yourself up the mountain or.

Yeah, maybe you change your mind on that. Yeah. And so, yeah, I, I can imagine that these, these benefits would only build on themselves.

And as you mentioned, you know, the side effects are little to none.

And also, you know, when we think about longevity medicine, which I have a lot of qualms with longevity medicine, but you know, there, there aren't really too many ways to get it wrong here. Yeah, just going out and existing and being, which, you know, for some of us. I'm raising my hand here if you're listening.

It is hard for us to unplug and to put away the, to do list and to say, I'm going to just be. Yeah.

Holly: 00:26:21

Isn't it ironic that the simplest thing is the hardest? I. I think it's even hard these days to just sit and fold laundry because it feels like you should be doing something.

You should be on the phone at that time, or you should be, you know, I don't know, walking your dog while you're folding laundry at the same time. I mean, that's kind of what it feels like these days.

Megan: 00:26:43

And so, you know, we need to be optimizing. Right, Right. Other than listening to this podcast, you shouldn't be doing anything. No, I'm kidding. So, yeah. Right.

Holly: 00:26:56

It's.

Megan: 00:26:56

It's not that we. And that's the whole idea behind mindfulness. You know, I can do my laundry while listening to my podcast, or I can do it mindfully. Yeah.

And those are going to be two very different experiences. I can eat dinner while watching the news, or I can eat dinner mindfully.

And the majority of the research tells us that when we're multitasking, we're not really multitasking. We think we are. We're just doing two things poorly at the same time rather than do one thing well, God, isn't that the truth? Yeah. And then.

And there's something lost when we try to do two things. You know, there's a lot of research that shows us that we eat more when we're watching something.

When we're mindlessly eating, we haven't really clocked those calories or we haven't really enjoyed it.

Whereas if I immerse myself in the experience of having a meal, connecting with another person across the table, my nervous system says, oh, thank you very much. I'm happy to do the work of digestion here. And, you know, I'll get this moving.

I'll get working on it for energy and moving it through your system as opposed to a nervous system. That might say, I don't have time to do the work of digestion right now because look what we just watched. There's war going on all over the world.

I need to be on high alert. I need to keep my muscles ready to go. I'm not going to shunt blood to the digestive system in case we need to run.

Holly: 00:28:37

That's actually a really helpful. I don't know that.

I know our focus on chronic pain doesn't necessarily always go into other parts of the body, like digestive system, but I want to pause here for a second because what you've said is just a really important eye opener. Mind opener. Because I don't think that the majority of us even think. Think about what the. What your body needs from you in order to digest well.

And, I mean, that's the last. It's like, that's my stomach's problem. Like, that's there. It's. That's my stomach's job. I gotta move on.

Like, I wolfed down this subway sandwich because 20 minutes late for my next appointment and. Right. And so I'm not even thinking about giving my body what it needs.

It's like, if it's gonna have trouble digesting, like, that's my stomach's problem. Like, I don't have time to worry about that. This.

And the reality is that everything that we're doing when we're compounding and multitasking and, you know, allowing stress to seep in, like, this is actually kind of running counter to the way our system wants to work. We're, you know, like, we're. We're not doing ourselves any favors. Why.

Why do we find it so freaking hard sometimes to just give our bodies what they need?

Megan: 00:29:55

Yeah. I think we live in an optimized world where it feels like if you're not going, going, going, doing, doing, doing, you're falling behind.

At least this is in the U.S. i understand not everybody's listening from the U.S. but it. It seems to be over the last few decades. I guess I would say that, you know, you. You, Free time. What is that? Who has time for that?

We don't really think about that. And like you say, most of us kind of tune that part out, and we say, well, that's my stomach's job. That's my immune system's job.

That's my nervous system's job. But really, all of those jobs are your jobs, your body.

Holly: 00:30:41

Right.

Megan: 00:30:42

And that may be one reason why when we're immersed in nature, our nervous systems, our immune systems, our digestive systems, I mean, I could go on and on. Endocrine systems all say, now I have the capacity to do the work because I'm not running 100 miles an hour here.

I'm not having to do six different things. I'm just kind of existing in nature. And so now my body can work on all those other processes that it can't work on when I'm in fight or flight.

Holly: 00:31:20

That's pretty powerful for someone who's experiencing sharp bouts of pain that feel like they're taking you. They're taking a toll on your ability to find peace and your ability to find quiet.

You know, I think A lot of times we're just sort of waiting for the next flare up and it. We sometimes just like Megan said, you're just moving through life just kind of from one thing to the next to the next and just having that moment.

I think about Richard Gere at the end of Pretty Woman when he takes his shoes and socks off and he just starts walking around the grass and he's like, I just, you know, I'm feeling the grass. I just needed a minute here. And it's, it's pretty powerful.

Megan: 00:32:06

What about.

Holly: 00:32:07

Okay, going back to that February walk in cold Chicago where those patients still experienced improvement, I was curious about what bad weather does to us because, yeah, of course, the sun, the birds, the spring flowers, all of that. But what about, you know, when there's a change in the weather and it's gloomy and it's not, you know, working for us?

Like, I feel like there are days where weather works against me, nature works against me. Like, is it a myth that this idea around it's raining and so my shoulder hurts worse? I swear that happens to me. So I'm curious what's going on there.

Megan: 00:32:45

Happy to clear that up. It's not a myth.

And people, especially with hardware in their body, like Holly and myself, you'll hear us sometimes say, I knew it was going to rain today because I've been feeling achy. Right? Yeah, you're like your own barometer.

And so what they think happens there is when the barometric pressure changes, our human tissues expand and contract, and they expand or contract at certain rates. And the non organic tissues, like the metal that we have in our bodies, expand and contract at a different rate.

Holly: 00:33:26

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.

Megan: 00:33:28

And so that's where some of that soreness, achiness, sometimes even stiffness feeling in the joint can come from when the barometric pressure changes rapidly. Like, you know, if we go from a 80 degree sunny day and then the next morning it's gray and gloomy, then you say, I could have told you that.

Holly: 00:33:51

Right, yeah, exactly. My, my knee could have told you that or my shoulder could have told you that or. Right, yeah, exactly.

Megan: 00:33:58

And for a long time people were dismissed and go, okay, yeah, it's hard for you when it rains, whatever. But it really does potentially rely on or is affected by the barometric pressure.

The other side of that, when things are gray for months and months can also really affect people. And I'm sure you've heard of the seasonal affective disorder, otherwise known as sad. Otherwise known as sad, Aptly named. Right.

Holly: 00:34:34

Yeah, great acronym for that one.

Megan: 00:34:36

Yeah. And this affects people. This affected my brother. We grew up in Tucson, Arizona, and so our whole lives were sunshine.

And when it rained, we were like, hallelujah, you know. And then he. He moved to Connecticut for a few years. And that last year, I think, you know, they got a big storm in mid March, maybe even early April.

And he said, I'm out. I have got to move. He was so emotionally affected by the months of gray.

And there is some evidence to suggest that artificial light for people in those situations can be very helpful for their mood.

And so they do make special lights that people can look at because, you know, that sunlight that they would get in the morning and in the evenings, they don't get because it's covered by clouds.

Holly: 00:35:30

That's really interesting. And so is that that light is meant to. Does it have the same kind of properties that you might experience with sun?

Like I'm asking because could this work with just any old light, or does it need to be that kind of a special light?

Megan: 00:35:46

That's a good question. So there are specialized lamps that treat seasonal affective disorder. So there's like a certain amount of lux or UV rays that you want to be.

That need to be emitted from the light to kind of, I think, trick you. It's like a measure of brightness to be able to trick you into your nervous system into believing, okay, this is actual sunlight.

And then still they want you to use it within the first kind of half hour of waking up so that you're again, sort of seeing as if you were seeing that morning light. I don't believe that you want to be using it in the evenings.

Yeah, there are readily available, you know, over the counter on Target or Amazon or other retailers. You can purchase these seasonal affective disorder light boxes that you look into for certain periods of time to help your nervous system.

Holly: 00:36:50

You know, that's something that I think we've. Most of us, I think, have experienced those blues, you know, that kind of down day when it's gray suddenly.

And I think in that case, you still go look and find nature, still get out there. Because I think one of the things that I found with chronic pain is the gloomy day will make me often, especially if I'm experiencing more pain with.

Makes you almost kind of want to curl up, right? You sort of go inward a bit.

And it's easy, I think, for some of us to kind of take a pass on nature when the weather's not good and say, I'll get back to it. In the springtime or I'll be back out there this summer, I'll make up for lost time.

And, you know, I think that we're not just talking about Sunshine, though.

What Dr. Megan you're saying is coming up in all of this research is that nature in many forms, even if it's just the sound of birds, even the sound of wind rustling leaves or crackling leaves, that that is beneficial, that that's healthy. I think what I'm saying is that even when the weather's not participating, let's still prioritize nature.

We still got to get out there and, you know, even if it's just the nature sounds like. You said it was seven minutes of listening. Did I get that right?

Megan: 00:38:20

Right. It doesn't have to be a huge commitment. It doesn't have to be a 20 minute, 30 minute walk in nature. It can be seven minutes of listening to a sound.

It can be five minutes of having your feet in the grass.

You know, some of these things when you want to curl in and say, I'll catch up next season, you know, it's kind of like when you say, I'll catch up on sleep or I'll catch up on exercise. Really, it's the consistency that's key.

And so I think that as if you've created a habit in some way, then you're more likely to stick with it even through those tougher times.

So, you know, maybe I had a really tough day, but I'm still, still committed to pushing play on that seven minutes of nature sounds as I'm falling asleep or something like that. Yeah. Okay.

Holly: 00:39:10

I think we've got to reclaim this. Especially with all the buzz around AI and technology moving our lives forward at a pace that we can't even comprehend.

You gotta find a blade of grass out there somewhere, right? Like, keep it, you know, keep it real, keep it human.

Even going back to what you were describing around the mindfulness of eating dinner, Another word for that.

It's funny how mindfulness can be polarizing and some people are really interested in it and some people find it, I don't know, you get an eye roll and I'm not sure what that is. It's almost become kind of bastardized. As like, mindfulness is equivalent with ple. With, excuse me, with privilege.

Like, oh, wouldn't that be nice to be so privileged that I could just really slow my walk down and just really brush my daughter's hair really slowly when it's like, excuse me. The reality is I have four and a half minutes to get out the door. The door. I have a screaming toddler. I don't have lunch made.

Don't tell me to sit there and mindfully, you know, brush my daughter's hair. It's not happening. Have you been at my house lately?

Megan: 00:40:18

Because that sounds all too familiar for me.

Holly: 00:40:22

My story. Yeah, I think that. Look, if mindfulness is something that you're interested in. Fantastic.

Let me offer you another word that would give you the same approach. Intentional or intentionality. Like, I think about that when I'm brushing my teeth. That, you know, if I. If my whole day was chaos.

But while I'm brushing my teeth, if I can be intentional, meaning, like, I'm really intending to do this. I. I'm. I'm really feeling each tooth. I'm feeling like I'm taking care of my mouth.

I know it sounds so goofy, but there's something reclaiming about that. Like, you're reclaiming the chaos. You're finding your feet in that particular moment.

And so if we could do that actually with a plant instead of with an electric toothbrush, sure. All the better. But, yeah.

Megan: 00:41:22

And so, yeah, if mindfulness doesn't appeal to you, intention is a great word. Awareness is a great word. Yeah. We could live our entire lives on autopilot in some cases. Right. If.

You know this, if you've ever gotten to work and thought, how did I get here? Right. Or gotten home after the end of a long day and thought, I don't remember that drive at all.

And so our brains are really efficient at recognizing patterns and predicting and going on to the next thing and making assumptions and slowing down and taking a few minutes can be really powerful. Like you say, it sounds so simple, and it's sometimes those simple solutions that are the most powerful. So I hope this episode was helpful.

I think it's really interesting and exciting information, and especially the fact that you don't have to buy anything. Yes.

Holly: 00:42:22

Yeah, exactly. Please don't. I mean, if you're deficient on vitamin D, you know, by the way, you got it. Okay, so talk to your doctor. Yeah. Your vitamin D supplements.

But I was gonna say, you don't have to pay for the sun otherwise. Right. And. And just water. Like, even running your hands under warm water, you know, for.

For a minute, taking an extra minute with that hand wash or just, you know, feeling something that's natural, I think can, you know, go a long way. And I'm so glad you brought this to the forefront today, Dr. Megan, because it's.

It's helpful and it kind of it makes me actually want to get outside right now. You know, I, I, I want to get out there and walk and just kind of look at a tree or something.

Megan: 00:43:06

Let's go. I'm, I'm all up for it. Yep.

Holly: 00:43:08

Okay. I'll meet you out there. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for all the education today and for our listeners. We really appreciate you joining us.

And if you were on a walk, hopefully you heard the birds chirping.

And if you, if you weren't, you know, hopefully you can, you can get that in today or at least just, just notice the sky above your head and take a deep breath.

Outro: 00:43:32

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